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All in the name of free speech, of course. - Piano wire. [entries|archive|friends|userinfo]
The richest girl in town.

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All in the name of free speech, of course. [Saturday, Nov. 10th, 2007|12:06 pm]
The richest girl in town.
-----Original Message-----
From: LiveJournal.com Support <abuse+817128z54xe@livejournal.com>
To: lwheeler@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Hate speech by "ragnus" in sanfrancisco
Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 11:03:50 UT

Below is an answer to your support question regarding "Hate speech by "ragnus" in sanfrancisco"


Dear LiveJournal User fightingwords,

While the content in question may be disturbing and in poor taste, it does not constitute a violation of the LiveJournal Terms of Service. In order for material to be considered a violation of the Terms of Service, it would have to specifically threaten or incite harm against a particular racial, ethnic, or social group. The use of a term, even a negatively-charged term, cannot be considered a violation.

As such, we will be unable to assist you; we encourage you to refrain from viewing this journal or comments made by it in the future if you find its content offensive. You may wish to contact the maintainer through any contact information the maintainer has provided. You can find a list of the community's maintainer(s) on the userinfo of the community in question. If the maintainer is unresponsive, or does not wish to assist you, you may wish to find or create an alternate community.

LiveJournal Abuse Prevention Team

[User Picture]From: sparkle_shortz
2007-11-10 08:09 pm (UTC)
How is "dead" not threatening or inciting harm...?
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[User Picture]From: vfc
2007-11-10 08:23 pm (UTC)
Playing devil's advocate here: References to "dead" people of any race, class, gender, etc.—however disturbing said references might be—is not the same as saying, "I'm going to kill all you [insert slur]."
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[User Picture]From: sparkle_shortz
2007-11-10 08:32 pm (UTC)
This is why hate speech legalese has no teeth. That hair's-breadth distinction only has meaning in determining criminal intent, not in determining presence or absence of racist hate. Since you can't kill anyone on the internet, it's a really meaningless standard for them to adopt.
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[User Picture]From: raybear
2007-11-10 09:00 pm (UTC)
Its not 'threatening', but in the context, it seems to qualify as 'inciting harm'.

Also, posting it in a public community, could be considered the equivalent of "yelling fire in a crowded theater". If he wanted to post that in his own journal all day long, it wouldn't mean the same thing.
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[User Picture]From: vfc
2007-11-10 09:14 pm (UTC)
See, I would say that to "incite harm" would mean to encourage readers to hurt others. While this tool said something disturbing and offensive, I don't see it as inciting harm.
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[User Picture]From: fightingwords
2007-11-10 09:16 pm (UTC)
I'd also say it counts as harassment, which is against the ToS.
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[User Picture]From: vfc
2007-11-10 09:28 pm (UTC)
But, legally and literally, the term harassment would entail this person do say such things repeatedly. As of now, it's just one comment.
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[User Picture]From: fightingwords
2007-11-10 09:32 pm (UTC)

I believe in free speech, but LJ isn't public. It's a private enterprise, and I think it speaks volumes when I've watched people of color get banned for publicizing hate speech made by whites (via macros made from photos posted by these people) and they continually avoid dealing with shit like this. I'd like to know--exactly what does it take to get banned?
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[User Picture]From: vfc
2007-11-10 10:03 pm (UTC)
That's true. I've never been embroiled in more than your standard LJ drama crap, but from what I hear from a handful of LJ friends (most of who are POC), LJ Abuse is quite notorious for ignoring hate speech.

Edited at 2007-11-10 10:04 pm (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: sealwhiskers
2007-11-11 04:04 am (UTC)
LJ abuse will ignore anything which will give them a bit of work to do. When they think that no legal retribution will haunt them, they ignore ignore ignore. As a moderator of a fairly frequented community I don't hesitate to say that LJ abuse team suck and aren't much more than a joke.
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[User Picture]From: raybear
2007-11-10 09:36 pm (UTC)
Actually, legally, if its severe enough, one-time is enough.
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[User Picture]From: raybear
2007-11-10 09:35 pm (UTC)
His statement could be also seen as encouraging violence that has occured (and/or will occur), so it could still fall under the definition. Especially given the context of where he made the statement -- saying it in public communities serves a specific purpose.

It just reminds me of the people saying that Don Imus shouldn't lose his job because of "free speech". Um, last time I checked, no one had a constitutional right to be paid as a talk show host. Free speech is about government imprisonment and censorship, not about communities deciding that contributions to systemic racism are antithetical to their purposes.

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[User Picture]From: sparkle_shortz
2007-11-11 12:15 am (UTC)
All very excellent points.
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[User Picture]From: zoe_trope
2007-11-10 08:24 pm (UTC)
Exactly: it would have to specifically threaten or incite harm against a particular racial, ethnic, or social group.

I think it's pretty specific.
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[User Picture]From: cindymonkey
2007-11-10 08:15 pm (UTC)
wtf. wtf. wtf.
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From: quinacridones
2007-11-10 09:20 pm (UTC)


we encourage you to refrain from viewing this journal or comments made by it in the future if you find its content offensive.

So. Where the fuck is LJ's killfile button now? They're ready to put up a flagging button the protect the poor, innocent, children, but they can't do shit to deal with actual hatefulness.
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[User Picture]From: darkrosetiger
2007-11-10 09:53 pm (UTC)
...but gods forbid anyone should mention something that might make someone think it involved underaged sex.

This would be why I've mostly left LJ.
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[User Picture]From: mollyblack
2007-11-10 10:13 pm (UTC)


That is fucked up. Shawn left LJ, I've removed all my extra stuff and just have this one up to stay in touch with friends and post photos from shoots.

Other than that, if I didn't have a permanent account that was from a sale over two years ago I would have made this one just a basic.

Bleagh. I wonder if more people complain if it would make a dent?
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[User Picture]From: flightviolation
2007-11-10 10:47 pm (UTC)
recently i was involved with a troll who has 97 journals & counting...nomatter how many times i banned him, he returned with another journal. i logged the IP address, but it was by proxy. he used over 30 journals...

even after repeated contact over the course of a week, they gave me the same spiel they gave you, that he was not 'encouraging others to contact or harm me' so they would do nothing. this fucker continues to follow me about, into year old comment threads...he deletes his comments after, which is also lj-abuse's excuse not to take action because that refuse to accept email notification as evidence.

You agree to NOT use the Service to:

1. Upload, post or otherwise transmit any Content that is unlawful, harmful, threatening, abusive, harassing, tortious, defamatory, vulgar, obscene, libelous, invasive to another's privacy (up to, but not excluding any address, email, phone number, or any other contact information without the written consent of the owner of such information), hateful, or racially, ethnically or otherwise objectionable;

am i reading that wrong?

ps. http://community.livejournal.com/lj_abuse/profile
it's a group of volunteers. all you have to do is fill out an application & prove that you can write well.

my bold tags were jacked so i edited...

Edited at 2007-11-10 10:49 pm (UTC)
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[User Picture]From: flightviolation
2007-11-10 11:29 pm (UTC)
says i'm unauthorized to see the request. :(

also, lj_abuse's "harassment policy":

it's such bullshit, l.
basically lj facilitates racist hate speech, sexual harassment, stalking & all sorts of oppressive behavior, so that the victims must take it or leave, while the perpetrators are protected.

i've made a PDF of my journal for my writing records, & i'm this close to blowing this joint.
EVEN if that worm outright threatened to kill you, he could delete it & slither off unreprimanded. & that is a hundred ways fucked up.

it's like lj_abuse is just for keeping up appearances just to make the site LOOK like they give a shit.
hi. i'm pissed.

it would be interesting to apply to lj_abuse team undercover & to SEE how they are training them to be such soulless fools.
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[User Picture]From: sealwhiskers
2007-11-11 04:07 am (UTC)
it would be interesting to apply to lj_abuse team undercover & to SEE how they are training them to be such soulless fools.

I've actually thought the same thing..the only thing that make me hesitate is the amount of work it would take...
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[User Picture]From: marrythebed
2007-11-10 11:20 pm (UTC)
Okay. So harry potter fanfic is a problem, but racist hate speech about killing a group of people is harmless. They're clearly being racist themselves, siding with white people's "rights" to say whatever the fuck they want over poc's rights to feel safe. It's sickening, and it is not a neutral stance in any sense.
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[User Picture]From: sult
2007-11-10 11:22 pm (UTC)
i can't see the original post. :(

no, i mean, :)
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[User Picture]From: softjunebreeze
2007-11-11 03:33 am (UTC)
Bull, and furthermore, shit.
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From: cleojones
2007-11-11 10:55 pm (UTC)
Here's the message I get when I hit the link:


You don't have the necessary privilege to view this request.

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[User Picture]From: fightingwords
2007-11-11 11:27 pm (UTC)
Hahaha. Oh, the irony.
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